Robert explains how as a Mormon, he was utterly sure that he knew all there was to know about the bible and everyone else was simply deceived. That is EXACTLY how my JW family was.
Sea Breeze
JoinedPosts by Sea Breeze
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Similarities Between JW's & Mormons
by Sea Breeze inover the years, i have found it helpful to see the similarites between jw's and mormons to help me understand what happened to me and my family as jw's.
robert bryan discusses this in one of the best presentations i have heard on the topic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wok7e3utzy8&ab_channel=bibleready .
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Similarities Between JW's & Mormons
by Sea Breeze inover the years, i have found it helpful to see the similarites between jw's and mormons to help me understand what happened to me and my family as jw's.
robert bryan discusses this in one of the best presentations i have heard on the topic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wok7e3utzy8&ab_channel=bibleready .
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Sea Breeze
Over the years, I have found it helpful to see the similarites between JW's and Mormons to help me understand what happened to me and my family as JW's.
Robert Bryan discusses this in one of the best presentations I have heard on the topic.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOK7e3UTzY8&ab_channel=BibleReady
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Who raised Jesus from the dead?
by Blotty ini have seen arguments surrounding jesus' resurrection being proof of "the trinity" - now while in some cases it's a good argument the evidence for it remains very weak.
(bible quotes are from the nwt but other bibles are referenced, use whichever you please) this following version of it is a good example.. "the bible indicates that all [persons] of the trinity was involved in jesus’ resurrection.
galatians[1:1] says that the father raised jesus from the dead.
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Sea Breeze
This game of ‘if you don’t know the exact reason, then whatever I say is the right explanation (or even plausible)’ really is very dull.
Jeffro,
You are the one that appears to be playing games with logic Jeffro. Are you a committed atheist?
Specifically, you are erecting a straw man here. This is incorrect thinking.... something that people with a cult background struggle with. The question is how a person shortly before death can become completely lucid when the brain is severely destroyed? So far you have have not provided ANY guesses at all."There are a number of cases reported where patients who were dying of malignant tumours that destroyed almost the entirety of the brain, confirmed by radiological investigations like CT scans and MRI, waking up and discussing their lives and imminent death, lucidly". Article
Do these facts better fit a materialist view where consciousness is said to be ONLY a product of physical brain function? Or, do they better fit a biblical view where consciousness is said to be separate from the body, especially at death?
Here is just one example out of thousands: A person clinically dies on the operating table and their consciousness leaves their body. She sees various doctors, sees where they put things and even drifts outside the hospital above the roof and sees a particualr kind of tennis show on the roof.
Later upon reviving, she relates these details and even describes the color of shoe on the roof. When checked out, all the details she relates while out of her body are found to be accurate.Please explain these facts from a material naturalistic view:
1. The case of Anna in the video I posted on page 2 of this thread2. Cases of seeing things while out of their body later verified to be accurate
3. Cases of verified brain dead patients acting and speaking completely normally shortly before death
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Who raised Jesus from the dead?
by Blotty ini have seen arguments surrounding jesus' resurrection being proof of "the trinity" - now while in some cases it's a good argument the evidence for it remains very weak.
(bible quotes are from the nwt but other bibles are referenced, use whichever you please) this following version of it is a good example.. "the bible indicates that all [persons] of the trinity was involved in jesus’ resurrection.
galatians[1:1] says that the father raised jesus from the dead.
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Sea Breeze
People who aren’t dead provide details of experiences when they were near death....
@Jeffro , that is a fallacy of false dichotomy. Incorrect thinking. I believe it is important to learn to think correctly after leaving a cult, which I assume you did the same as I.
The discussion regarding terminal lucidity and NDE's is not whether or not a dead physical body can experience things.
The discussion is how do you explain from a materialist worldview the hundreds of thousands of cases where people, minutes or hours before death, suddenly are perfectly lucid and can talk who have not done so for years or even decades prior? This phenomena is consistent with the idea that the soul leaves the body when the body stops functioning.Many cases have been documented of this happening in patients with:
1. Severe mental retardation when the patient has never spoken since birth.
2. Severe Alzheimers patients where the brain has derterioated to the point of showing little more than a functionaing cebral cortex to sustain heart beat, breathing etc.
3. Severe dementia patients who have no clue who they or anyone else is.
Is this not strong circumstantial evidence for consciousness existing apart from the physical body, especially when brain scans shown little left of the physical brain?How do you explain the many documented cases of NDE's where the patient clinically dies, their consciousness leaves their body and they see many details in nearby rooms? Once revived, they tell others who find the information to be true.
Behaviour of neurotransmitters near death is fairly well understood.
Again, this is false reasoning. The subject being discussed is consciousness, not neuro transmitters. Numerous studies are just beginning to be conducted in these areas.
How do you explain having any experience without a nervous system?
I get my explanation from God's word which says that souls have consciousness. The medical facts are on my side here. How do you expalin terminal lucidity and NDE's with just a nervous system?
Beliefs about consciousness independent of a functioning physical body are just made up nonsense based on ignorance and wishful thinking.
Really? I don't think so. I believe the soul is your true consciousness. The physical brain with its neuro transmitters is simply the interface by which conscienceness can perceive and interact within a physical environment. I believe that TL cases and NDE's are consistent with this view and are impossible to explain from a materialist worldview.
You are more than welcome to try though. -
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Who raised Jesus from the dead?
by Blotty ini have seen arguments surrounding jesus' resurrection being proof of "the trinity" - now while in some cases it's a good argument the evidence for it remains very weak.
(bible quotes are from the nwt but other bibles are referenced, use whichever you please) this following version of it is a good example.. "the bible indicates that all [persons] of the trinity was involved in jesus’ resurrection.
galatians[1:1] says that the father raised jesus from the dead.
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Sea Breeze
If a person dies and everything deteriorates so that there is no connection to his previous existence, then resurrection can only be duplication.
Exactly TM. The reason that JW's don't know what a resurrection is, is because they don't know what a death is.
The WT lies to its members and says that an immortal soul concept was stolen from Plato and Greek culture. Yet, in what may be the oldest book in the bible, we have a soul departing and a death occuring simutaneously:
Gen. 36: 18 - And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.The biblical definition of death is the separation of the soul, spirit, & body. A resurrection is just the opposite: A reintegration of the soul, spirit, & body.
Once a person has been conceived, they will be conscious forevermore. Jesus reccomends that we give some thought as to where we would like to spend eternity, either separated from our body (and God as well) or in OUR OWN BODY as part of God's family. It really is a very simple question. -
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Who raised Jesus from the dead?
by Blotty ini have seen arguments surrounding jesus' resurrection being proof of "the trinity" - now while in some cases it's a good argument the evidence for it remains very weak.
(bible quotes are from the nwt but other bibles are referenced, use whichever you please) this following version of it is a good example.. "the bible indicates that all [persons] of the trinity was involved in jesus’ resurrection.
galatians[1:1] says that the father raised jesus from the dead.
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Sea Breeze
resurrection stories are impossible to reconcile with each other
@peacefulpete
So are the testimonies of those who saw the Titanic sink regarding whether of not it broke apart before going under. Yet, no one questions that it sank.
Such is the nature of eyewitness testimony. Each sees (and reports) things that were particulary important to them.
This is actually a very powerful artifact of authenticity. Total uniformity smacks of collusion. -
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Who raised Jesus from the dead?
by Blotty ini have seen arguments surrounding jesus' resurrection being proof of "the trinity" - now while in some cases it's a good argument the evidence for it remains very weak.
(bible quotes are from the nwt but other bibles are referenced, use whichever you please) this following version of it is a good example.. "the bible indicates that all [persons] of the trinity was involved in jesus’ resurrection.
galatians[1:1] says that the father raised jesus from the dead.
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Sea Breeze
@enoughisenough
Do you believe that the bible teaches that money is the answer for everything? Christian churches do not teach this although the bible CLEARLY teaches that money is the answer for everything.
Don't believe me? The scripture is found in the same book that says that the dead "know nothing at all". Here it is:
Eccl. 10: 19 - People prepare a meal for enjoyment, wine makes life joyful, and money is the answer to everything. - NASB (NWT - "money answers every need")
Now, to be consistent, the WT should teach this along side their version of "the dead know nothing at all". But they don't. Neither do Christian churches teach this .... but not for the same reasons. The WT doesn't teach this because people would soon leave the organization to pursue education and other things related to getting as much money as possible. So, they must be inconsistent in order for their organization to survive.
On the other hand, those with even the slightest bit of basic Christian education know that the book of Ecclesiastes is written from a very specific point of view, a carnal one, a physical one, the one our bodies exist in "under the sun". Dozens of times the book reminds the reader that it is a philosophical work from a materialistic point of view - under the sun".
It is a point of view that is ultimately rejected by the writer when he reccommends to fear God and give him glory as early in life as possible before a reprobate mind sets in.
Ps. 146 is simply talking about the body: Remember, the bible assumes that the reader knows we are a tri-partite being and consistently applies personhood to each of the three parts by using pronouns when speaking of each.
King James Bible
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
New King James Version
His spirit departs, he returns to his earth; In that very day his plans perish.
Dead souls clearly can remember, talk, reason, feel emotions and complain as clearly illustrated in Rev. 6: 9-11
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.Notice, how dead souls have every bit as much personhood as a physical body.
This kind of confusion is what happens when a man with a 7th grade education who believes that God has entrusted the fate of all humans on earth to him starts a religion as CT Ressell did. -
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Who raised Jesus from the dead?
by Blotty ini have seen arguments surrounding jesus' resurrection being proof of "the trinity" - now while in some cases it's a good argument the evidence for it remains very weak.
(bible quotes are from the nwt but other bibles are referenced, use whichever you please) this following version of it is a good example.. "the bible indicates that all [persons] of the trinity was involved in jesus’ resurrection.
galatians[1:1] says that the father raised jesus from the dead.
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Sea Breeze
None of that has any basis in reality whatsoever.
@Jeffro - So how do you expalin away tens of thousands of accounts of terminal lucidity and near death experiences to be able to arrive at your conclusion? That's a lot of data to ignore unless you have an apriori commitment to materialism.
These common instances over millenia certainly seem to indicate consciousness to be separate from the body. The below instance is just one of thousands of documented cases.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmc9yktCtms&t=123s -
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Who raised Jesus from the dead?
by Blotty ini have seen arguments surrounding jesus' resurrection being proof of "the trinity" - now while in some cases it's a good argument the evidence for it remains very weak.
(bible quotes are from the nwt but other bibles are referenced, use whichever you please) this following version of it is a good example.. "the bible indicates that all [persons] of the trinity was involved in jesus’ resurrection.
galatians[1:1] says that the father raised jesus from the dead.
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Sea Breeze
Who raised Jesus from the dead?
He did. Just like he predicted he would in John 10: 18 -
"No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again."
Becasue Jesus was a tri-patite being.... like us; he was still fully conscious in spirit after death, just as we will be.Only, His spirit was God.
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why celebrate xmas?
by enoughisenough inmany on here are ex jw....they have left the jws because of coming to find out the many false indoctrinations.
one of the things learned as a jw is that there isn't anything true about xmas being the birth of jesus.
( matt chapter 2 tells a whole different narrative about the baby jesus than what is portrayed by the christian churches) they learn the ways that are celebrated are pagan practices jesus told the samaritan woman that god wanted to be worshipped in spirit and it truth.
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Sea Breeze
Ken Johnson PhD explores the origins of Christmas and how Roman pagans hijacked the